24. Blake Jorgenson | Photographer / Director / Producer
In this episode of the Shotlist Podcast, we dive into the world of a seasoned professional, Blake, a Photographer, Director, and Producer. Starting his photography journey in the pre-digital age, Blake recounts his early days of breaking into the industry by getting his first image published in Powder Magazine at just 19. His initial success was just the beginning, setting off a career dedicated to creating still and motion work for many of North America’s leading outdoor, active, and automotive brands.
Throughout the podcast, Blake offers a wealth of advice for both new and established photographers. He shares the critical importance of building trust with clients, the evolution of his business model in today’s digital world, the strategies for introverted photographers to build meaningful industry relationships, and he also walks us through his project bidding process. Let’s dive into this insightful conversation with Blake, and hear about his impressive 25-year journey in the photography business!
Episode Highlights
1:29 Blake, the Photography Veteran
7:38 Exploring Blake's Journey as a Photographer
12:15 Monetizing Photography in the Early Days
16:23 Blake's Profitable Business Models in Today's Photography Industry
18:22 Building Relationships as an Introverted Photographer
19:29 Key Factors in Building Client Trust
24:16 What sets apart individuals charging $2,000 versus those charging $200,000
30:51 Representation for Photographers
35:15 Revenue Streams in the Photography Business
44:05 Insight into Blake's Bidding Process
48:18 Making the Jump from Working 5 Days a Week to 1 Day a Month
51:24 Separating Personal Projects with Client Work
🔗 CONNECT WITH Blake Jorgenson
📸Instagram | @jorgenson_blake_ 💻Website | www.blakejorgenson.com
🔗 CONNECT WITH MARSHAL
📸Instagram | www.instagram.com/marshalchupa 💻Website | www.marshalchupa.com 👥 Linkedin | www.linkedin.com/in/marshal-chupa-99a7921a8
📄 SHOW NOTES & TRANSCRIPT
Visit the website for the transcript and highlights from the conversation - www.shotlistpodcast.com
🎙 ABOUT THE PODCAST
This podcast is all about helping emerging cinematographers, photographers, and directors navigate the challenges of making a life and a living behind the lens. From workflow to personal growth, creative vision to marketing, finances to production—every episode is packed with a wide range of topics to support visual storytellers in their pursuit of building a business and growing a career they are proud of.
🎧 LISTEN FOR FREE Apple Podcasts | https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/shotlist/id1645435800 Spotify | https://open.spotify.com/show/3m5203Y5yQ7wNXQhZBOmNV?si=f46bc0e937bf40c1
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📱 GET IN TOUCH
You can also drop me a DM instagram @marshalchupa or email marshal@marshalchupa.com
Transcript
Introduction and Welcome
The numbers are sort of irrelevant. The numbers are basically whatever you want for your photo. And like I said, like, yeah, one photographer might be stoked with 50 bucks and the other photographer might want 50 grand. It really comes down to like what that particular photographer is happy walking away with. People compare too much of like what someone else is getting. In my opinion, like Whether it's your day rate or a stock photo. It's like it's it's whatever you feel like you're happy with and that's that Hello, and welcome to another episode of shot list where we talk about how to make a life and a living behind the lens I'm cinematographer Marshall Chupa. And today I'm speaking with Blake Jorgensen in this episode Blake and I dive into What it was like breaking into photography before the digital world existed. The importance of building trust with your clients and how to go about doing so when working on bigger commercial jobs. Some of the resources and tools he uses when it comes to building creative decks and putting bids together and knowing when to put on your operator hat versus your creative hat to ensure both you and your client are being fulfilled along the journey. It was great to get a chance to speak with Blake. I see someone who has been in the game for a very long time and survived the ebbs and flows of the evolution of what photography has become today. I'm excited to share this episode with you. Let's dive in.
Blake, the Photography Veteran
Well, Blake, thanks so much for coming on the shot list podcast.Excited to have you here. Thank you for having me. Much appreciated. Yeah. So I feel like I have heard your name for the better part of a decade as I've kind of worked my way up this freelance. Creative ladder, you know, here in the sea to sky. Uh, would you consider yourself one of the OGs in the game around here?
Tough to say, I mean, time flies for sure, but it's, it's funny. I always considered myself like the new kid, you know, in the mind frame of where I came from. And then you blink and you're not the new kid anymore. So be wary of that, everybody. Yes, that time thing does happen. For those who don't know you, how do you identify?
And I don't mean sexually. I mean, uh, you know, as photographer, director, producer, where do you land in that camp? You know, I think for most of my career, I worked in, uh, outdoor and action sports as a photographer going on many adventures with many amazing people to many amazing places. And, uh, I think in the last 10 years, I've kind of expanded into commercial work and more creative work and just working as.
In more of a team environment, as opposed to just, uh, as a soloist. And, um, I think that's kind of a natural progression for a lot of people. You know, I think I started out in photography because I was quiet, shy, and had the desire to express myself, but I had pretty poor communication skills. And, uh, ironically, in order to actually properly fuel my passion, I had to kind of conquer those issues.
Ha ha. Yeah, I still feel like I got a long way to go, but I've come a long way at the same time. Yeah, I think that's a pretty normal thing for us creatives. We tend to be in the more introverted right brain type. And yet the whole make a living part that comes along with this has a lot to do with the left brain being able to speak well, lead all that other stuff.
So I feel you on that part. I'd be curious to start right from the very beginning. Where did things kick off for you? How old were you? When did you start taking photography seriously? I was super into art in high school. I went to high school in Toronto and uh, I got into photography at that time. I had this big dream of, uh, living in downtown Toronto, like painting gigantic murals for advertising was kind of a big thing in those days.
It's like pre digital, you know, you actually like drew these giant, you know, things and you, you kind of like hung down on and painted them all by hand. And I watched, watched these guys do this. And I was like, that's so me, you know, the combination of art and something thrilling. That's what I wanted to do.
Yeah. And I don't want to date you, but what, what year are we talking? Oh, that would have been like, uh, the late eighties, early nineties. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. I ended up moving to Whistler in 1993. I think 93, 94 was my first. And uh, I had come to Whistler on a trip. When I was like 16, and I was, I think it was just kind of like the first place that I've been to, which hadn't been very many at that point, where I was like, I can see myself being here. This place has an amazing cultural vibe that, that I resonated with. And, um, I was struggling with school, I was struggling at home, I was just struggling in general, and I basically just ran away to Whistler. And I think just fell in love with the outdoors and fell in love with the people and the energy and I think everything just switched to being outside because their space is a very difficult commodity in the sea to sky.
So I think that. It forces everybody outside and, uh, going into, um, you know, photographing my friends pretty much right out of the gate, uh, in the Whistler area, doing whatever it is that we did. And I think it was the desire to just, you know, document and show that we were doing amazing things and not wasting our lives away. So some like, you know, validation for an unknown person, I suppose, in those days, I think, uh, It's hard to like wrap your head like, you know, cause everything is so, you know, online and so digital and social media. But like in those days, like I started shooting on slide film and, you know, to like the dream of like getting a photo published in a magazine was, was really big.
You know, it was like, it was like to get basically a roll of film from the photo lab. To a magazine published in the hands of people where they could see it was, uh, you know, a much larger hurdle than showing your stuff is today, but because that hurdle was so big, it made a huge impact. It seemed like, and, uh, I think when I was, like, 19, I sent, like, 20 slides to David Reddick at powder magazine and, um.
One day he called me and said that he wanted to publish one. And, uh, I was just absolutely floored. Like, you know, the energy that went through me was. Incredibly exciting. And I think that that's the energy that everybody's trying to achieve. However, it is, they're going about it and whatever decade they're going about it.
But I feel like that, that energy of being able to communicate with people on a grand scale or an exciting, exciting way that expresses is what everybody's looking for. And I think I just ran out the door and tried to, from that moment on, try to get as many photos published in Powder Magazine as I possibly could.
Yeah, I feel like that feeling is very addictive. You're right. That is the feeling I think us creatives to seek. It's, it's that inspiration. It's that flow state. It's that adrenaline, I think. And oftentimes we lose it in the journey of, but like yet to hear that spark. You know, that was the first spark or official spark.
It feels really genuine and cool that that's what kicked it off. Now I'm sure at the time, you know, there's not big money in, in magazine stuff, or maybe there was back then,
Exploring Blake's Journey as a Photographer
but I'm curious, how were you supporting yourself as you broke into making money with photography? My first job in Whistler was, was tuning skis for Blackcomb.And it was great because it was kind of like a nighttime job. I go ski every day and all the guys that work there were extremely passionate. Backcountry skiers and extremely passionate about the mountains and just, uh, I think that that's where I started, you know, photographing with those guys and they really showed me the ropes at a young age and I was just really lucky.
And, you know, in those days, there's no cell phones, there's no internet, there's no nothing. So like that ski shop was like a hub for people to communicate almost like, you know, going 11 when you're in high school or the. Arcade or something like that to just to see what's happening and see what's going on.
And, uh, I feel like I was kind of like in the center of the universe in terms of like the birth of like people try to make it as a pro skier or a pro snowboarder or a pro mountain biker. It was all just kind of starting in those days in its infancy, so there wasn't really too many people. It's not like now where you have like this very.
Obvious, like, paved road that you can see, like, work with, or whatever. It was, it was all kind of, like, new, and that was exciting, but it also made it hard to figure out how to go about things, for sure. I was lucky to have some mentorship with some older guys at that time, um, local guys like Paul Morrison and Eric Berger, you know, some other guys from out of town, like Mark Gallop and Scott Markowitz.
They're all pretty helpful in an inadvertent way. You know, they wanted to be protective over what they were to do, but I think they're, they still had, they're still excited to see this like young kid, but it was, you know, I think in those days, you know, digital cinema hadn't really started yet to get something on film.
Like people were shooting 16 millimeter film and, you know, and ski and snowboard companies, but it was a mission to make that happen. And so photography was a really big deal. Much bigger than I think it is now for action sports, because you had magazines, that was something that advertisers could have a lot more control over, you know, in those days, all they really could do is buy a logo on like a matchstick movie, you know, they couldn't really make anything themselves.
Until things switched to digital. So photography was a lot more of an entrepreneurial endeavor. I think where, you know, there's a huge market for stock imagery. There was a huge demand for stock imagery, which I think has been pretty much eliminated now. So it was, it was a lot more like, you know, figuring out how to create this content on your own dime and then sell it, you know, sell it on your own.
And that was challenging, but it also, I think it suit my personality as well. It worked really well for me for a pretty long time, I think. And then things started to switch, things started to become a little bit more like work for hire type photography. Once companies could, in a more realistic way, potentially hire someone and make their own content, both photo and video.
So there's, there's like that slow evolution, but, but in the beginning there, I would have to take huge risks and self fund myself and go on these trips and. Try to not only break even but turn a profit, you know, and it was hard because you're like young and you're so passionate and you don't really think too clearly.
Uh, you want to do everything. So it'd be like one trip would be a disaster and you'd lose money and the next trip would be a success and you'd make money and it would just be all over the place. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the journey. But I think one thing is like, I pretty much started shooting full time when I was like 23.
So pretty young. And throughout my entire twenties, I didn't really care about making money. I was just, I just wanted to be included in this world with those people. And, you know, the athletes, the filmmakers and the people worked at these companies. I really loved. That world and, uh, you know, it wasn't even until probably like by late 30s till I was like, maybe I should start thinking about making some money here.
I don't know because I was having a great time, you know, and so what was the point? Obviously, you were able to make enough of a living. You said 23, you kind of stepped into that. What were the pieces? Was it just magazine? I was at stock sales.
Monetizing Photography in the Early Days
Like, what was what was the cash flow that allowed you to at least make a little bit of money? Enough of a living, um, back then. Yeah. I mean, it started with Matt, you know, magazines was the Instagram of those days, that was your marketing. Essentially, by, by getting photos published in magazines, people, it proves that you have the ability to bring to the table and you have the ability to get the images out there, because that's, that's another thing that people forget about is like working with physical slides and negatives and getting them out there.
From A to B is a bit of a bit of a lost art that doesn't exist in the digital world anymore. Just push a button, right? Right. So just knowing that you're someone that can deliver on on getting the photos into these magazines, getting them into the hands of the right people, getting them to the advertisers, like that was.
It was a huge part of the job and put an incredible amount of time, like having a big slide table and writing on all the slides and try to figure out where they're all going to go and blah, blah, blah and hope they come back. Right. That was a big, um, a big mission for sure. And where did the actual money come from?
So to speak, like it wasn't the magazines are funding this or the stock photography or yeah, so One hand kind of washed the other, like once people start seeing you in magazines, they start hiring you, they start hiring you to, uh, want to do shoots. And then it kind of, once my name got out there a little bit more, what ends up happening is I would have enough of relationships with all these companies where I would essentially be shooting for them, or they would be funding me to shoot.
To have access to the content that I was creating, but they only needed a small amount of it. So the rest of it would all go to magazines. And then because I was, after I was established, I was essentially funded by the advertisers. So I would have an incredible amount of magazine content. That's how I did it for many years.
So you're, you're building relationships with brands. They're kind of paying the way for you to go do these shoots. They only want specific, a handful of images. And then you're selling on the back end to magazines to kind of cover, uh, to create other income. Is that correct? Correct. And it greatly benefits them for you to get the content in other places as well. If they fund you to go on a, on a trip with a film company and they give you X amount of dollars, they're And then you get, you know, a bunch of covers out of it that promotes their athletes and promotes them, then it all just increases the value of what you're doing for them. So I think a lot of in the bigger picture, a lot was learning about value and entrepreneurship.
Is what I really learn a lot through those years. Yeah. And like looking at the landscape now, like, is that business model still one you're using? I think in my mindset it is, but I don't think that it doesn't work that way anymore. I think everybody does in the digital world now pretty much work for hire.
It's very challenging to sell stock imagery or imagery that you've created on your own. Yeah. You know, there's always special circumstances, but it's definitely not like it was in those days. You know, there is definitely years where I could sell every single good photo that I could take. There is enough of a demand.
Whereas now I think I could go on a trip like that and create all this content and not sell a single photo because. Now, I think if someone doesn't have a fairly substantial like print campaign already planned out, the value becomes very minimal because I think that everybody prefers to, um, put it into motion or, or video. So if you don't have sort of a print campaign laid out, it's probably only just going to be on social media. So the values. Goes way down.
Blake's Profitable Business Models in Today's Photography Industry
So then in that case, what is the profitable business model these days that you're approaching? Cause obviously you're, you're wearing the director hat as well.Motion's now involved. How does your approach look like these days? I think that by offering a variety of different things, so a lot of the commercial work that I do now, you know, I'll hire like a DP, like I'll, I'll, I'll handle the production. I'll do the photography and I'll, and I'll manage the video. So.
Clients can hire me directly to do essentially everything and then I will, I will hire almost like my own production services company and then, you know, sometimes agencies will hire me directly to just be a photographer, but I think in the last couple of years, I'm definitely leaning towards doing a lot of things.
All on my own or with, with my team of people directly for the client. So client comes directly to you and kind of speaks to like, Hey, we want this campaign. You know, it has probably a certain amount of stills, deliverables, motion deliverables, and you're kind of saying, Hey, sounds great. I can make all that happen.
And then you kind of reach down into your network and, and pull together, whether that's a DP or, and all the other puzzle pieces to bring it together and then sell that. Full package. Is that what I'm hearing? Yeah, pretty much. And, uh, that allows me to have a bit more control and definitely allows me to do it cheaper for the client, you know, sort of like eliminate the middleman type type thing.
Is that directly from a brand or is there, you're saying basically cutting out the agency in the middle, which is where the big cost exists. Is that kind of what I'm hearing? Yeah. It just, instead of say a production services company or someone that's going to take over this and then hire me. For a fee or hire the whole team for a fee, I'm just stepping into that role, basically, you know, where I do all the hiring.So instead of just being a photographer for hire, I can assemble the whole team. That makes sense.
Building Relationships as an Introverted Photographer
And when it comes to building like relationships with people, brands, companies, how do you go about that? Because I think it's a big kind of question mark for a lot of people getting into the industry, you know, like we spoke about right when we started the chat, you know, you were a quiet, shy guy who's naturally introverted.
And yet in our industry, we have to be. Extroverted. So I'm curious, how have you managed to start building relationships and reach out more? Yeah, it's a long, slow road. Like, you know, I think I've been doing it for 25 years full time now. So definitely didn't happen overnight. And I think that a lot of the growth is only happening recently because, you know, I finally, after so many years, really tackled those issues that, that make you have the ability to, to reach out and have people trust you, which is the main thing.
Like you can be an outstanding creative, but at the end of the day, people have to trust you that you're going to be able to execute this and execute it in the parameters that they have laid out. That becomes a whole art form all on its own, I think.
Key Factors in Building Client Trust
And if you were to break that down a little bit, what are the things that build trust within a client? I think when you're dealing with clients that have a lot of experience, like agencies or art buyers or producers or whatever they can tell in one zoom call, whether you've got what it takes to to do this, I think with smaller companies, you know, they might be more inclined to be a little bit looser, but I think the higher up you go really comes down to, you know, The confidence within yourself that, that you got this and that you're not, uh, overextending beyond your abilities.
Cause I think with those types of jobs, they don't, they want you to be able to do this in your sleep with one hand tied behind your back that they don't want you to like, try something you've never done before, or, you know, reinvent the wheel on their dime sort of thing. Right. So it's being able to. No, basically be there, be there in terms of your place and ability and know that in your vision.
I think that the more on point you are of where you are in your ability as a creative and your ability to execute what they're looking for as a creative and more importantly know how to say no. You always want to be pushing to the limits of, of your ability. There should always be some excitement there, some nervousness, but at the end of the day, you, you have to have the confidence that you got it.
And they have to have the confidence in you that you got it. I didn't really think that way when I was younger. I just thought about like, Okay. If I just take really epic photos, everything's going to fall in place. And, uh, I think that that, that thinking is probably why my progression may be slower than it, than it could have.
So that, I think that that's like a solid piece of advice I can give to people is like, you know, you still have to do good work, but I would say in the commercial space, Being able to know where your abilities truly lie in the presence and your confidence in that and being able to explain and communicate that to other people so that they have the confidence and trust you is probably just as much maybe more important.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so if you're on a zoom call, let's say with a creative director, and ultimately what I'm hearing here is like, they're putting their own. livelihood on the line with you. They're saying like, I choose you to pull me through this shoot and obtain our objective. And you know, if you fail, they fail.
So there's, that's the trust piece I think I'm hearing. And the other piece is that having good communication skills is what allows you to build that trust. Now, okay, you're on a zoom call with a creative director and they've got a, uh, A multi six figure campaign on the line, what kind of things do you think about that helps them trust you in that moment from a communication perspective?
I think the main thing is, you know, having the experience to completely understand what it is they're trying to achieve and being able to visualize it. How it's going to unfold and I think they really like to hear that you're picking up what they're putting down creatively because essentially you are an extension of something that they have created.
They've sold to a client and they don't want you to to. Reinvent their wheel. They want you to make their wheel come to life, but I think it's also important to let them know that maybe, you know, you see issues or problems, you know, don't just say whatever you can to get the job, actually like dive into it and be like, Oh, I see an issue with this, or we can do this and really go through the pros and cons of how to make that come to life.
You know, I think that that type of dialogue is really what gets people Gives them the confidence that you're the right person to make this happen. Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that comes down to communication in general in life is that if we're just trying to play like the nice guy and just everything is good.
Oh, sure. I'll make that happen for you. No problem. Like, it probably lacks the confidence and trust building ability because they're like, if you're calling out red flags and helping maybe problem solve on the spot, then they kind of see that as a. An asset versus, um, thinking it's a problem. Absolutely. I think if you have the confidence to call out oversights on their behalf, that instantly just shows that you are, that you're on their side, that you're acting in their best interest, and I think that that's what.
Ultimately, clients really want to hear from your experience. I think this is a interesting question I like to ask, but it's, you know, when it comes to dollar value in the world of money making with photography,
What sets apart individuals charging $2,000 versus those charging $200,000
what separates a 2000 photographer from a 200, 000 photographer when you're getting started out, you see these guys, the 1 percent at the top and you're like, I don't understand how are they.Doing these big campaigns and making all this cash and then there's people who are have pretty awesome work, but they're not making Anywhere near as much money. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Yeah, I mean that all goes into the bigger picture of understanding value In general, and I've had this kind of conversation with a lot of photographers because I think it's what a lot of photographers struggle with.
They can't they're having a hard time put their finger on understanding value. And, like, I think the simplest way to start is that the value of your photography is not how good it is, or how much effort you put into it. The value is based on what the client gets out of it. So if you're going to be embarking on a multi six figure shoot, if they're going to put it out there in a way that it's going to be seen by a zillion eyeballs, then that's where the value is, you know, but you could essentially do a similar shoot where you're creating very similar content for another company like the next week.
And very few people are going to see it, even though you've created the same work, um, put the same amount of effort, the visually looks just as good because way less people are seeing it, value goes way down. So I think a lot of photographers get hung up on, Oh, this picture is really amazing, or I put a ton of work into it, but that actually doesn't mean anything.
At least, um, you know, my perspective, cause that's what goes with, with licensing, you know, like licensing. Whether it's photos or music or anything that's transferable is fully based on how many people view it or listen to it. So that's that's sort of like the basics of tabbing up the value of what you've created is based on how many people see it or listen to it.
So then how do you go about. Figuring that out. Well, that's why people have reps and agents, and, uh, there's also consultants. You don't have to do it all yourself. Like that's, I think another mistake that a lot of people make is people are afraid to ask questions. And I was one of those people where I was just scared to admit that I didn't know what I was doing.
But the reality is, is everybody doesn't know what they're doing to a certain degree. You know, so it's like, as long as you can be humble and ask people and just say, Hey, I really respect your opinion. People will help you. And there's, there's no shortage of things out there where people can help you for For money, basically like consultants or whatever, there's consultants for hire on a daily rate.
You don't need a an agent. There's things like wonderful machine out there that help photographers answer all these questions, put together bids, put together numbers for them. So, yeah, you can, you can reach out there and get people to help you if you don't understand it. Yeah, that's actually something I've done before is worked with Brian at wonderful machine.
As an EP and help put together a bid. And I think that's something like you just said, like it was quite a complex, complicated thing. There was usage involved and I wasn't sure all the bits and pieces and to have someone be able to pay them a certain rate. Obviously, there's a gamble. You don't know if you get the job or not to pay them up front. But ultimately, if you do get it, it is structured in a way that is presented with that value for like you're talking about. So I definitely want to emphasize that piece to others out there who are struggling with that stuff. Like you just said, it. You don't have to figure it all out yourself. You just have to know the people who can help you.
And so is there anyone else that I guess obviously you mentioned having an agent like when going through that process, is there any other resources for those who are struggling with that part that you would recommend? I mean, I think that there's lots of photo agencies that you can join. That have endless amounts of resources, but I, I definitely think for, you know, photographers in our neck of the woods, things like wonderful machine or, or a great, it's just like a monthly subscription and you know, there's actual people that you can talk to and that can actually help you put together your numbers.
You're not just reading blog pages on the internet incessantly, you know, you have actually someone that can help you with marketing or treatments or bids or You know, numbers, whatever. So that would, that would be my recommendation. I was with them for quite a few years. Yeah. On that note. Obviously, you can kind of sign up to some of these platforms to put your name out there and, you know, pay a subscription, all this kind of stuff. And some are, I've heard from talking from other commercial photographers, like super expensive, like, you know, 20, 000 for the year or something versus, uh, some are like, you know, a hundred dollars a month or something. So in your past experience, what has worked for you, I guess, with those kinds of platforms?
Um, have you got any bids or bites from just being on a roster of like that, or how has that worked for you? Yeah, I think that's a tricky one, because, you know, I've tried a lot of different things, and I've had this conversation with other people too, is nobody really ever knows where the work comes from, you know, so it's sort of like, you kind of do all these things to a certain degree of blind faith, but it's never very obvious, like, exactly where it came from, you know what I mean?
So you just kind of have to feel it out of, What works best for you, I guess. Yeah. The old shotgun approach. Yeah. You know, I think in this day and age is like anything in any business, like direct relationship building, like anytime that you can build a relationship with someone directly, that's where you're going to achieve your, the most success.
And I think that most, if you tally up most of the work that I've ever had, it's always, You know, it goes back to that trust thing. There's always an endorsement, there's always a referral, there's always sort of a human, a human connection there of someone, someone that's worked with me in the past and in some way connected because it goes back to that trust thing, you know, it's like you could have this amazing portfolio and you know, when, when someone's trying to execute a really expensive job, it all comes down as like, can we, you know, okay, this person has the artistic ability, but they also have the.
Ability to drive this ship with confidence. You know, that's super important, especially once you get to bigger jobs. And you mentioned, I mean, are you repped or let's talk a little bit about that world?
Representation for Photographers
Like, do you need to get repped as a photographer? Is it a good idea to get repped? How beneficial is it? I think it's going to be a different story for everybody, depending on what you shoot and what genre you shoot, you know, people ask me around here. I think that, uh, if you're an outdoor photographer or an action sports photographer, you definitely do not need a rep. It is definitely not. A world that they really understand, or there's really not enough money into it, you know, like, like, the simple math is if you're doing jobs where you're getting paid, like, maybe 5 or 10 grand for a job, like a reps not going to put effort into it for 500 bucks or 1000 bucks.
They want to make. 10, 000 bucks. So you have to sort of add an extra zero on everything and then you have to ask yourself, okay, what kind of things can you get involved with that? That's going to be in that world. Reps kind of find you, you know, they, they see marketability in you and they can visualize how they can sell you with their experience. And then that's kind of how that goes. So is that old saying that like, you know, when you're ready, they'll find you kind of thing, or I think so, you know, because a lot of reps are just, they help you manage the work, but it's still really up to you to get the work, or it has to be very sort of reciprocal, you know, both of you have to be bringing in the work evenly to make sure that the relationship works properly, because if it's super lopsided, it just kind of Falls apart. Yeah, that is a consistent pattern. I'm hearing or an assumption that's made is that when you get a rep, they just bring you work. And that's great. And you just got to sit back and phone rings. But ultimately, I don't think it works like that is what I keep hearing. And that it is like a relationship, like a business partnership.
You're both consistently trying to pull in and contribute because both your livelihoods are online. And you've now joined forces. Is that is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah, because once you might have an idea like you that, you know, rep can be good for cold calling people for you, but it's still you have to come up with the material and the idea and be like, I want to reach out to this person.
And maybe you're you're a person that's not so good at that. And your rep can do that. But you still have to be the driving force to it. Yeah. To do that, I think also like, you know, when, when jobs get bigger, it's, it's helpful for them to help manage the bids, manage the numbers, manage the communication.
Cause like, you can end up on a zoom call with like 15 different people and all these account managers, but it can be super overwhelming. And also you can also go through waves where you're super busy. Like, you know, there's times where. You know, I'll be on a shoot, you're doing post production of the previous shoot and you're bidding on the next shoot all at once and your brain is about to melt out of your ears, you know what I mean?
And that's where you, that's where you need help. You know, that's a better way to look at it and it's going to cost you money. You know, it's going to cost you, but in order to make sure that you don't have a, a breakdown and don't mess anything up, it's worth the value. Yeah. So maybe that's another piece I'm hearing is like when you're too busy to like do it all yourself, then it's time to bring someone into help.
Yeah. Correct. You know, if you kind of like think of it as like a. An NBA player or something like that, or you know, like they need someone to help manage all of the things that are going on. It's just too much for one person to handle. Yeah. And you have someone going to bat for you if you feel like you don't have the ability to go to bat for yourself in terms of putting your own value on the line and stuff like that.
That person can help you with that. And I think that's for a lot of photographers that are still still in that introverted phase, that can be worth a lot to have someone speak on your behalf. But like I said, it's, it's gonna cost you money and, and you have to already sort of be in demand enough. Um, your work has to be there and be in demand to be in that position.
So yeah, I think it's the wrong approach to think that getting a rep is going to, is just going to get you work. And to keep on the money train, cause I think money is just this big. Question mark for photographers, and there's not a lot of answers out there for it, so I want to continue to dive into it, but it's so when you look at where all the money comes from, let's say if you broke it down from the top to the bottom. So let's say usage rights on big campaigns is the top and like getting published on the magazine is at the bottom. So just my assumptions from how would you break that down top to bottom?
Revenue Streams in the Photography Business
Like where are photographers really making money and how? How can they look at that framework? Yeah, I mean, I think that that's Ultimately comes down being being an expert in your genre and you'll be doing, you know, kind of a steady stream of smaller jobs in that genre that continuously makes you an expert.
And then every once in a while, you do potentially a bigger job or a job that you got because you are an expert in that genre and someone referred you or said, you know, that's how I think it was for me for, you know. Quite a long time, but now I seem to just try to go for bigger jobs, so I actually shoot very little over the course of the whole year. Now, sometimes a job will take me a month, but I'll only shoot like 2 days because all the pre production post production and all the management of that job. Just takes a lot of time. Whereas like when he shot back when I shot action sports, it was, it was so much of a lifestyle. So you're just out shooting all the time, shooting, shooting, shooting, shooting, and then figuring out what you're going to do later.
That's another kind of like, thing that's interesting is like, I feel like separating the difference between photojournalism and documentary work from. You know, actually creating something from the ground up and being able to direct and create stuff on demand. I didn't really think of the difference between the two for a very long time and now I've realized that it's very important to distinguish the two processes and how you'reThe majority of photography out there is like photo journalism, documentary work, and it can be used as advertising, you know, it can be used, but it's like when you just kind of just make it up as you go along, even if it's done in a stylish way, it only has so much value when you have the ability to.
design something or understand someone else's design and being like, okay, we are going to create this and you're going to create it on demand with total control. The value is kind of limitless in that mind frame. So there's definitely always a skill and photojournalism and being, being able to document in the moment.
But I think it's important to like, Know that there is a difference between the two and how to approach the two when the time comes. Yeah, the difference I'm hearing here is like, you know, I've experienced this all the time as a DP, you're, you're handed, uh, you know, a creative brief and it is your job to just be able to translate that.
And it doesn't matter what's happening. It's like, okay, it's a sunny day, it's raining, all the variables are going to be thrown at you. Can you still make it? Can you still produce what, you know, the creative director is after on demand? And I think that is the skill set. You're talking about there is the ability to continue to show up with the skill set, have your bag of tricks and know that they can get what they're paying for.
Is that, is that what I'm hearing? Totally, you know, like being in the outdoor space, so much of it, how it was done is sort of, it is in that, um, documentary style of let's just hose it down, get as much coverage and we'll figure it out later because we're sure we got something good. You know, that's really how.
A lot of it works, I think, but like, I think to take it to a higher level and to do something that's really amazing, you have to have something. A lot more planned out and, uh, the more planning you can do, the more elaborate your ingredients can be to to bake the cake sort of sort of deal. And I think in recent years, that's that's what I've become a lot more excited about is having these really extremely elaborate.
images and pieces that you put together and then seeing it come to life is incredibly rewarding for me. I never really thought I would enjoy it as much because I spent so many years out in the back country just making it up as I went along, you know, and I do like the, the bake the cake analogy. It's something that I keep. Coming back to and try to use as like a metaphor for explaining to people because sometimes like on lower budget shoots, like you can't, for example, there isn't the budget to have the ingredients, let's say. So when the creative director says, I want this shot, you know, and it looks like this and you see it and you're like, well, okay, this, this is going to involve like.
A handful of people like a grip and a gaff and there's a camera moving here. So I need a first AC point focus and we're gonna need a gimbal and all this sort of stuff. This is how my DP brain works. But when you can do that, it's like you add all the, you're given all the right ingredients to create the shot, so to speak.
Whereas if it's more challenging when it's like, Let's say it's a super sunny day and you wanted this really moody shot and you have just you and a camera like ultimately you're kind of just given the flour and the sugar and that's it and you didn't get the sprinkles or the icing or the fudge or the all that kind of stuff.
So what I'm hearing from you is it gets you excited to slowly Plan the baking process, come up with all the puzzle or all the ingredients and then being able to like execute at a more higher level. Is that right? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think just the ability to pre visualize as a mental exercise is super important and the deeper that you can go. Into that mental exercise as the years go by in your career. I think that's probably one of the most helpful skills that you can always continue to develop that's visualizing the creative. There's also the other part too, is understanding production and visualizing how you can make this happen with whatever tools and whatever budget are presented to you.
You know what I mean? So I think that that becomes a whole nother skill. Of visualization, because you're like, you know, you might, okay, we have 100, 000 to do this shoot, or we might have 10 to this shoot, but both are going to require radically different forms of visualization of how you're going to go about it.
So that's super important too. I think like, that's something that I had a really hard time with is I didn't really understand production. For a long time, like I would get hired on these commercial shoes and I'd be like, I have no idea what's going on right now.
And, uh, you know, so it took me years and just sort of like figure out how that works and then also figure out how agencies work and figure out how to just navigate and communicate. With confidence so people could have confidence in me. And that's something that's always ever growing in the action sports world.
It's like all these people are your friends and, and it's a big bro down and then everything's cool. Like they, and they, they already have the trust in you. You know, you don't really have to, uh, sort of sell yourself, so to speak. The trust is already there. The relationship's already there. So that's, that's how you get the jobs in those world and that world, but like, As soon as you start dealing with people that don't know you, and you have to build that confidence and build that trust really fast, I think that's a whole different ball of wax.
That was definitely really challenging for me, for sure, still was challenging. Yeah, so hypothetical scenario, you know, an email lands in your inbox right now, it's a potential multi six figure campaign that they're asking you to bid on. What's that process look like for you, like moving, moving forward?
What are the first steps, I guess, walk me through the process you might go through? I think the first step is to set up a call where you can ask a lot of questions. So Basically to really try to get that visualization going what it is they're trying to achieve and how you would go about it and how you feel are the strengths and weaknesses definitely let them know that you understand the creative and that you understand that you're picking up what you're putting down.
And ask a lot of questions that that brings up the potential problems, I think that will help you on your oversight with your bids. And that also, I think it helps, like I said before, it establishes trust that a that you have the experience to recognize these red flags and be of the confidence to say it in that call to make them feel like you are concerned with, uh You know, the welfare of the shoot and that you want it to be successful.
And then, you know, after that, it goes into like, you know, if you're in a, in a bid process, you know, you have to have your treatment and your numbers and everything has to be pretty dialed. So what does the treatment of yours look like? Uh, how do you begin to build that?
Insight into Blake's Bidding Process
Are you jumping into Keynote or Adobe, you know, something rather than design or I love to nitpick into like the details of like your process.
Yeah, I mean, I do everything in InDesign and, uh, I make them myself. I'll get designers to make templates so that I can just drag and drop images around and drag and drop text around because sometimes people want these treatments in like 24 hours or 48 hours and you can't really hire someone to make them.
Yeah. So I think. And my experience is best to just kind of buckle down and learn how to use InDesign well enough that you can kind of do it yourself. And if you have someone that, that has the time to help you, great. Uh, I think copy is really important. I think a mistake that I've made is like, I focus so much on the visuals and be like, this is what you're going to get visually.
And then I have these like really poorly written paragraphs or copy that I just kind of made up. So, Everywhere where you can show all these strengths to show that you're super dialed, um, and that you're the right person for the job is, is great for you. Great. Any, anywhere that shows, like, sloppiness or they're going to show up.
It's clear as day to those people, in my opinion. Yeah. Okay. So you've got, you've, you've built your pitch back in, in design and when it comes to putting together a bid, like what software are you using or what structure, how do you put that together? You know, I've used this invoice program, uh, called photo biz pretty much like my entire career. This guy, uh, Craddock, he's actually out of like Vancouver, but it's been like this sort of like stock photography invoicing program, but it has a lot of like info, it has a lot of like pricing info, how, how he calculates pricing that I've always found that that's another, like going back to where we said before, another source of information, I think to help you price mostly for stock stuff, but it does help you with assignments as well.
Yeah, like what kind of example of what is it helping you price per se, like when it comes to usage or yeah, I think, you know, if you think of it in a bit more of an old school way of like, okay, someone wants to buy a postcard and they want to use it for 6 months and they want to make 1000 of them. You can literally like punch it in and he gives spits out these numbers and these explanations because the numbers are sort of irrelevant.
The numbers are basically whatever you want for your photo. And like you said, like, yeah, one photographer might be stoked with 50 bucks and the other photographer might want 50 grand. It really comes down to like what that particular photographer is happy walking away with. I think at the end, because people compare too much of like what someone else is getting.
But I think in my opinion, like Whether it's your day rate or a stock photo, it's like, it's, it's whatever you feel like you're happy with and that's that, and that's always going to change as your career grows, but like when you price out a job, you want to be stoked that like, I'm doing this job for this amount of money and I'm going to put everything that I've got into it.
I don't think that really matters what the actual number is. I think that's going to be something that the younger generation just breaking in will struggle with a lot is just like, yeah, putting in high numbers, understanding, like holding their own value and saying, saying no, essentially if they say, Hey, you're too high or something like that. Like how many times, I guess, have you said no? And was, is it easier to say no as you have gone? On over the years and build the confidence or yeah, I mean, like when you're, when you're just starting, you have the tendency to say yes to everything because to a certain degree, everything's pretty exciting, but when it comes to like value, like if you say your day rate is X amount, because there's other people out there with that day rate and they have similar photos to you, but your phone's not ringing at all.
Then your rate's probably too high. Like if you want to put your rate down to 500 bucks a day and work seven days a week, if you want, you know what I mean? But if you're like, okay, I don't want to work seven days a week. I want to work one day a week, or I want to spend the whole week on that job. And you know, I think everything is also like goes back to your value.
People spend too much effort analyzing other people and just focus on. On yourself, you know, and, uh, I think managed, you know, as, and like that in my career now it's like, I'm not really in a position to be out there like in the back country, like five days a week or something like that. It's just life life changes, you know, so well, and that same explanation, though, like, I feel like any photographer is going to say, Hey, like, I'd rather work one day a week or one day a month, but I think there's a piece of that that then what is the piece that can allow you to say that?
Making the Jump from Working 5 Days a Week to 1 Day a Month
Like, is it. The level of work you're creating, like, what is the separation between, Oh, I want to work, I have to work five days a week versus I can work one day a month. What is the difference there for those, I just, Trying to understand how to make that. Well, I think first of all, it goes back to what I said before, but like just whatever you're happy with.
Like if you're happy working for 500 bucks a day, that no one else has the right to say you're working too cheap, I think. And if you have your rate at 5, 000 bucks a day and no one's ever calling you. Well, that's pretty obvious, too. Right? And another thing that maybe is important to mention when it comes to value is like, there's, I think there's 2 different ways to approach a photographer.
There's the way of, like, oh, my God, what that person does is amazing. What's it going to cost to get that person? That's a difference than than a company buying. We have a thousand bucks. Who can we get for a thousand bucks to do this? You know what I mean? There's two different approaches there. And there are two different ways of kind of understanding value and how you're going to put yourself in that ring.
I think a lot of stuff on the lower end is more of that. Who can we get for a thousand bucks, which means they're not specifically wanting You, and it can, it can teeter into a more of a labor job at that point, whereas you're creating, creating, creating something and the value of creating, you know. So what's the difference then that separates you from being the 1, 000?
Like is it creating work that is so unique that you're the person specifically for that thing and you're the only one? So maybe that comes down to a question of like. Shooting personal work to then sell at a higher level. Tell me maybe a little bit about your process around that. Yeah, I think that it's the ongoing evolution of creating your own unique style that's noticeable and becomes noticeable enough that it becomes sought after. I think that's the natural evolution of everybody's entire career. And, and we're, we're all, you know, Trying to express our own unique vision of our perspective of this world and why we're here and the better and more of a unique way that we can do that, I think the better of a job we're doing at our craft.
Separating Personal Projects with Client Work
That's it in a very macro kind of way. And how much personal work are you doing these days when it comes to like the level you're playing at? Like, let's just say you do a, I guess the ratio of personal work to paid work. What does that look like? I think my personal work gets me super excited these days.
And. You know, if I have a lull in work, I'm like, okay, now is the chance to bang out these personal projects that we've been burning sleepless nights for a while. So I think the personal work is a great way to just keep your passionate drive moving forward, which is so important because as long as you can keep your passionate drive, you can overcome any obstacle in this career.
That's the number one most important thing that everybody needs to have is to do whatever it takes to maintain that passionate drive. And I think personal projects are the, you know, a really great way for, for everybody to continue doing that. And for me, it also allows us to separate work as well.
Because I think that for many years, you know, especially in the outdoor world, I think everybody's trying to romanticize this dream that we're all combining work and lifestyle and convincing ourselves that we're not working. But I think in a more professional mindset and as you get older and a way to. I think it actually works better for me now to actually separate the two. And then when I do do a, you know, a client job, I'm, you know, I'm dedicated to them. I'm dedicated on their needs. I'm not bringing in any personal requirements because I do that on my own time now and I do basically Take money from the commercial jobs to fund my personal jobs.
And another really important thing that I've realized that's really important is that by doing the personal work, it allows you to be in control of the direction that you want to do, that you want to go, which is very important. Because I think there's many years where, because I was trying to combine the two, the only time that I would ever pick up a camera is when I was being paid to.
And I think that You're in danger of losing your identity because your identity becomes basically a mishmash of the people that hire you. And, uh, the only way to get away from that is to force yourself, no matter how busy you are. To do things that explore your own identity and explore your own path of where you'd like to go and maybe in that exploration, you decide that this is somewhere you don't want to go.
That's just as good. But at least you're you're in charge of your direction. And I think that. Art directors and other creatives from agencies. Like I think they see that in people that are making those kinds of efforts and they kind of, those, they're like, those are the people we want to work with. Those are the people that are kind of on point and their creative drive and their creative direction.
And those are the type of people that we want to use or partner with to elevate our projects. Yeah, there's a really important piece. I think I heard in there almost for myself is that how you're separating the mindset of the personal work from the client work because I do find myself personally like you're on a, you're shooting a client project and like, wow, this, this isn't how I would do it.
Or I wish I could do it a different way because it would look way cooler. But ultimately, what I'm hearing though, is like, you're able to separate those and like, okay, look, my job right now, this is my job. I'm here to deliver exactly what this person is asking for. So I'm gonna not let my own Personal part of me dictate or push that I'm here for them and then you go and separate those and then do the personal work where you can do to put all of your love and energy into exactly how you want that piece to look and get that creative fulfillment.
That way. Is that what I'm hearing? Exactly. 100%. Like, you know, if you're, if you're doing these client jobs and you're trying to put too much of your own personal emotion and personal creative energy into it, I think there's going to be conflict there and you're only going to get so much of your, that personal fulfillment out of a scenario like that anyways, but I feel like when you put 110 percent in your personal project, it's, it's limitless, the fulfillment that you can get, I feel like once you go down that road, then you can just focus on being a technician.
And, uh, focus on getting the client what they need and doing a good job and, uh, just being very black and white about it, I think. Yeah, that's a really good point. I appreciate you kind of bringing that one up. Yeah. Just as we begin to wrap things up here, speaking about personal work, is there anything that's really firing you up right now that, uh, you're keen on?
Getting shot. I don't know. I, I think that I'm always just trying to find like deeper layers of creativity and deeper on the fact that it almost like scares me to try and attempt to pull off. You know, some of the things that I've been trying lately are almost like things that I've wanted to do for Since I first started, but I didn't have the guts to do it. I didn't have the technical expertise. I didn't have the communication. I didn't have the emotional courage, so to speak. Like I think action sports was just really easy because I could just sit on the sidelines and make it look cool. I didn't have to really hang my own emotions out there. So I think, you know, getting involved in projects that really sort of bring that out of me.
You know, regardless of it ends up being doesn't doesn't matter if it makes money or loses money doesn't matter. I think that just going through the process of putting it down on paper. And then overcoming the fear of making it happen is become something that's incredibly artistically fulfilling. And I've kind of reached this zen where I like, I'm, I'm doing what I'm going to do and I don't care how, what people think of it.
And, uh, you know, after reading like Rick Rubin's book there, that kind of talks a lot about that. I think that it's important to not get sucked into trying to get too much validation from other people because it warps your direction. And I think that you just gotta like go deep inside yourself and pull these crazy ideas out and just try to make them happen.
I swear to God, it's taken me like 20 years to find the guts to do that. Well, all in due time, you're making it happen. Is there a specific project that you've done that with before that's really kind of scared you or pushed you creatively? Like an example of something like that? Gosh, I mean, um, I think a lot of the personal projects that have have have sort of like similar mechanics, both in the creative and the production, where it's very much focused on like a simplified moment are almost something that appears like it happened and maybe just like a couple minutes, something really fast.
But I put so much effort in the into the scene and how the scene looks and how That that's all you kind of need, so to speak, but it's like, I don't know, it's, it's hard to explain, but I'm definitely enjoying myself. I don't know where it's going to go. Maybe it'll be the death of me, but I feel like, uh, and it has to be done.
So, yeah, I mean, ultimately, if you've been doing it for 25 plus years, I feel like it's probably going to keep clicking along here and you did, you're doing something right. But it's cool to hear that you're still infusing and pushing. Hmm. New creative ideas and doing things on your own dime and just like trying to scare yourself consistently. I think that just speaks to the never ending creative process. So it's cool to hear your story and how all kind of your client process, your artistic process. And, um, yeah, I really appreciate you coming on the show today. Thank you very much. Yeah, like one last thing is I that took me a long time to realize is I think it's also important to know the difference between a technician and an artist.
I think knowing that will allow you to wear both both those hats because I think we have to wear both those hats, you know, because. I think that the identity of a technician is someone that, you know, does something pretty repetitively to obtain a certain level of perfection and, uh, doesn't really want to take risks.
And, you know, that, that works really well with client work, but at the same time, I think as an artist, you never want to do the same thing twice. You want to take huge risks and you're, you know, you're in danger of, you know. sinking your ship at any moment. And I think that the real balance that we're all trying to achieve is, is the relationship between the two.
It's like the two, the devil and the angel on your shoulders or something like that, that, uh, we'll, we'll keep your career moving forward, but we're also prevent you from. Burning out at the same time. Yeah, I like that. That rings, uh, rings a bell and real feels very true for me as well. So, um, where can people go to find you, Blake? If they want to check out your work and what you're up to. People can just go to my website. Just my name, blakeorganson. com. Or they can come visit me at my house in Mount Curry. Have a full, full size, uh, studio here. I like to live out in the sticks. Lots of space. Awesome. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I love chatting with other creatives too. We're all in this together, so anybody can reach out to me at any time. Yeah, I appreciate that. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. I think there's some great nuggets in there and I really enjoyed our conversation. Yeah. Thanks very much for having me. Very appreciated. Okay, that was Blake Jorgensen.
Blake has put in so many reps when it comes to figuring out how to make a life and a living behind the lens, and I really enjoyed diving into some of his creative and business processes that he has built over the last 25 years in the game. I encourage you to check out his work at BlakeJorgensen. com.
Jorgensen. com that's Blake J O R G E N S O N or on Instagram Jorgensen underscore Blake underscore. In an effort to continually grow this podcast and help you make a living doing what you love, I have a request. I want you to DM me on Instagram. at Marshall Chupa and let me know what is the one thing you are struggling with the most and why is it so painful.
Learning what my audience is struggling with most will help me dig deeper in future episodes with the guests I bring on and ultimately helping us all as a community. In future episodes, I will be speaking with photographers, cinematographers, directors, producers, reps, and anyone who has decided to make this ambitious leap of faith and making a life and a living behind the lens.
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